Turning Breakdowns Into Breakthroughs With Dan Tocchini

Ready for a reframe that actually changes how you lead? We sit down with transformational coach Dan Tocchini to unpack why conflict isn’t a detour from progress but the most reliable road to it. From the first moment you commit to a bold outcome, resistance appears. Dan shows how to meet that resistance with clear aims, better questions, and conversations that create alignment instead of drama.

We dive into the mindset shift that turns breakdowns into breakthroughs. Rather than fall into blame, shame, or chasing credit, Dan walks us through a simple operating system: accept the results your system produces, then ask what’s working, what’s not, and what’s missing for the future you’re committed to. We also explore how to argue well. You’ll learn to slow down, surface premises, avoid logical traps, and take the other person’s side so well they nod. That’s how teams get smarter fast.

When defensiveness spikes, Dan offers a disarming move: ask what could be true in what they’re saying. Pair that with honest speech—naming what’s real for you now—and you speed up the path to truth and trust. We round out with The Change Imperative, Dan’s practical framework for leading transitions: identify natural influencers, win the fence-sitters, engage the levelers, and expect turbulence before lift. If you want meetings with less heat and more light, this one’s a playbook.

Grab Dan’s free ebook “The Change Imperative” at takenewground.com, then tell us your biggest takeaway. If this conversation helped, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more leaders can turn conflict into momentum.

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Welcome to The Brad Weisman Show, where we dive into the world of real estate, real life, and everything in between with your host, Brad Weisman! 🎙️ Join us for candid conversations, laughter, and a fresh take on the real world. Get ready to explore the ups and downs of life with a side of humor. From property to personality, we've got it all covered. Tune in, laugh along, and let's get real! 🏡🌟 #TheBradWeismanShow #RealEstateRealLife

Credits - The music for my podcast was written and performed by Jeff Miller.

Chapters

• 0:00 Host Welcome And Sponsors
• 1:38 Meet Dan Tocchini
• 4:03 Conflict As The Yellow Brick Road
• 7:58 From Breakdown To Breakthrough
• 13:19 Good Arguments Versus Bad Arguments
• 19:14 Curiosity Over Defensiveness
• 23:34 Hug The Cactus And Honesty
• 29:34 Facing Difficult Conversations
• 36:04 The Change Imperative Framework

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:22

Real estate market sometimes affected by real life. Real learning. If you think about it, Wayne Dyer might have to attract everything and everything in between.

SPEAKER_02: 0:41

And now your host, Brad Wiseman.

SPEAKER_03: 0:44

All right, here we go. Another show. Yes, baby. Thanks for joining us every Thursday at 7 p.m. to uh to check out the show. We really appreciate it. Um, you know, we know that you have a lot of things you can listen to, and you're listening to us, and we really appreciate that. We also have every of our sponsors, first response contracting John Tellers. Um, thanks for sponsoring the show and also Comfort Pro. They do HVAC and all kinds of stuff. We want to thank them for sponsoring the show too. But we have another amazing guest, Hugo.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12

All right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13

We are just really blessed with just amazing guests. Um they're somehow they're finding me or we're finding them, and it's just been just been great. Better and better. That's right. Yeah. We have a guy, his name is Dan uh Tocchini. I I almost said his name wrong, but he's gonna be uh talking to us about all kinds of stuff. Difficult conversations is one of the things. Talks about conflict uh is the yellow brick road to success, uh, which I thought was an interesting uh comment. But I'm gonna just tell you a little bit about him and then we'll bring him on here. He's a transformational leadership coach and strategist who has been spent 35 plus years helping startup founders, executives, and high performers face their blind spots, overcome limiting beliefs, and lead with courage. This is good. His story is packed with interesting people energy. He's worked everywhere from Silicon Valley boardrooms to war-torn communities, guiding leaders through chaos, helping them turn breakdowns into breakthroughs.

SPEAKER_01: 2:08

All right.

SPEAKER_03: 2:09

Pretty cool, right? So let's uh let's talk to Dan. We got a lot of stuff to talk about.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

There you go.

SPEAKER_03: 2:13

Hey Dan, how you doing? Good, Brad.

SPEAKER_00: 2:15

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03: 2:16

Appreciate it. Absolutely. I love the hat, dude.

SPEAKER_00: 2:19

Oh, well, you know, I'm bald, so this is my hair.

SPEAKER_03: 2:22

Oh, that's your hair? Wow. It's a little different, a little different, and the glasses too. You have like a cool look going on.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_03: 2:29

You look like you just got off a Harley or something like that, actually. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

Oh, I wish. I my wife would never let me have a Harley.

SPEAKER_03: 2:34

Uh so she's so you listen to her, I guess, pretty well.

SPEAKER_00: 2:38

Well, I I'm I'm a bit non-accident prone, so you know, she's like had enough of the hospital visits and has restricted me to certain activities.

SPEAKER_03: 2:47

Right. So you're allowed to play pickleball, maybe or something? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

I I I ride a bike mostly indoor. That's six, seven days a week. I might ride about a hundred miles a week. Wow. And then I get out when I go to Northern California, I take my bike out and get out on the roads in the winery.

SPEAKER_03: 3:04

Uh Napa. You talk about Napa and Sonoma up there?

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

I used to live in Hillsburg.

SPEAKER_03: 3:09

Oh, okay. Yeah, it's beautiful up there. So you're from California. We we I was gonna ask that question, or you're living in California.

SPEAKER_00: 3:14

I live in Idaho. I'm a uh political refugee up here in Idaho, and uh I come from like I I grew up in California, Northern California, Petaluma, Santa Rosa, Hillsburg area.

SPEAKER_03: 3:27

Cool. So you so uh so you're in Idaho now. That's interesting. That's very interesting. Yeah, so let's dig in here with with all kinds of stuff. You're you're an interesting guy. I'm I was looking at you on Instagram for the past couple weeks. I've been I've been looking at your website, checking out different podcasts you've been on, and you are, yeah, you're definitely an interesting guy. You get some great messages, great quotes, uh, very unique in in your delivery on how you how you look at things. So I just like to go through quotes and things that I saw. So one of them is uh conflict is the yellow brick road to success. That hit me. Um, you know, you you're really good at at coaching people through conflict. I I noticed that on some of the things that I read about you. What so tell me what does that mean? It's the yellow brick road of to success. How's that possible?

SPEAKER_00: 4:12

Whenever you make a commitment to get anything done, yeah, you're going to you you have no commitments, you have no conflict till you make a commitment. The minute you make a commitment, everything that's there to stop you becomes the potential, that's the potential conflict. So, you know, if you and I are sitting in a room and we're just chatting, no big deal. But if I say, hey, I'm gonna get out of this room in three seconds, then everything between me and the door, I have to navigate. And most people, when they make a commitment, are stunned at the at the conflict that comes out of it. Particularly if you have a pretty diverse team that thinks diversely, your first objective is to get them aligned. And if you've unilaterally set this goal, you're gonna have more of an uphill battle than if you get clear about what you want the outcome to be, and then you collaborate about how to get there.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

And even then, so but you're gonna have different types of conflict, things people aren't gonna want to do what you want to do, or they may think it's better to go another way. They may not like what's going on, they may have other issues, it may flush issues up they have with you. There's a million different things that come to the surface. And you got to be ready, and it's a yellow brick road because the more you actually break through or resolve or align, the alignment starts to occur because their objections, the conflicts you face will cause you to clarify who you need to be or become in the process, and it'll begin to pull out of you conversations you didn't know you needed to have. And you got you better be ready to resource yourself and those around you in a way that um is it it you if you're gonna be unilateral about it, you're just gonna probably get drugged under the bus and you're gonna feel despair and resistance and think, oh, what the hell? What am I? I can't find people who want to follow me. That's usually what I hear. You know, there's not good people out there. But you know, it it relates to how you engage what you're up to, how much, how useful the conflict will be. I mean, the guy who used to have Procter and Gamble. Anyway, I read his book years ago, and he said that he was asked, How do you know if you have a successful day? And he said, by the number of conflicts I navigated successfully, I want to have days, I want my day full of me resolving, working with teams, my team to resolve things. And the more we do that, the more I know the ball's moving down the field. Knowing which conflicts to focus on and which ones to let sit isn't is part of it as well. So yeah, but it is definitely the you know, the obstacle is the way, the old stoic says.

SPEAKER_03: 7:00

Yeah, the obstacles is so true. Yeah. Otherwise, the because the easy way never gets you anywhere. I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:06

Whatever you avoid, it's gonna eventually defeat you. So you might as well get to it quickly.

SPEAKER_03: 7:10

Absolutely, absolutely good. I that's great. You know, and and some of the other stuff I saw in here was from breakdown to breakthrough, the art of turning failures into foundations for growth. Obviously, every industry, every business, every even relationships have breakdowns. And then but you got to get through it and and make it a breakthrough. So tell me your your opinions on that or what you what you teach on that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:35

That's a mindset issue. So, you know, uh naturally built into your biology, you have uh a survival mechanism when your body is programmed to keep itself alive, and it's got two mandates keep the spacesuit alive. And the second mandate is save energy in case it's needed to keep the spacesuit alive.

SPEAKER_01: 7:57

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 7:58

So breakdown comes what people tend to do naturally, because a breakdown means things aren't going as planned. Right. They're going, it looks like they're not gonna happen or they're gonna go in a direction that isn't fruitful, etc. So the brain goes to there must be something wrong, bad, or broken with it, them, or me. And the problem with that is it's a lie, uh, it's a survival mechanism that's useful in the wilderness, or you know, when you're under attack and you want to be quick to do something to resolve it, or to protect yourself. But we naturally go there, our amygdala kicks in, and instead of so what we work with people to do is to notice when that comes up, notice when you get thrown into there's something wrong, bad, or broken with it, whatever the project is, them, whoever you're working with, or yourself, that's a death spiral because really there's nothing wrong at all. The system set up to produce the results it's getting, if you can accept that, then you can embrace the results, even particularly if they're not what you think, and then you can ask yourself what's working, what's not working, and what's missing. If you can identify what's missing in you know in the context of your vision, then you can discover what's wanted and needed, and then you know exactly what to you know how to stand, where to look, the kinds of requests you need to make. They can be powerful, they can be direct to what's wanted and needed. And it keeps you from de it keeps you from personalizing the breakdown or projecting it onto somebody else as if it's somebody's fault. Yeah, you know, really work hard with people to with teams when we work with them to get off of you know, blame, shame, and credit. Those are the three dangers, they're dangerous. Instead, we want to move to like blame, shame, and credit are all focused in the past. Yeah and they're all after looking at for more, better, or different. Everything's past oriented, because you can't know if something's more, better, or different unless you look at the past and see what you got. What we're asking is saying, well, what if you you looked at it and said, This is the future I'm committed to, never had it before, but I know this is what I want. Based on that future, what's working, based on that future, what's not working, based on that future, what's missing and how what's wanted needed that I I can provide or become a force to provide with the team and the resources I have available. Yeah, that that's the way you transform a breakdown into an opportunity or a possibility.

SPEAKER_03: 10:37

The one that was interesting you said is you said shame, something shame or credit.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

So there's there it was blame is my I'm shaming myself, and then the credit though, you're taking credit. Blame is blame is I'm blaming you, right? Shame is I'm blaming myself, right? And credit is I'm giving you or me credit.

SPEAKER_03: 10:54

Right, that's what I thought. Yeah, that's interesting. So, because the two are kind of like eh, not good, but the credit one's like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:01

We all want to get credit for it.

SPEAKER_03: 11:02

Yeah, of course, we'll get credit for it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:04

The problem with if you give credit, then who somebody's losing? It's not really it's like it uh there's a couple things with it. One is it personalizes the result. Like I can I can acknowledge you for what you've done, the contribution you made, right? But I don't give credit to anybody. The credit, credit to the team, okay, good. You know what I'm saying? Have you ever skateboarded or skied or something like that, right? Yep. Right. So so who can you don't get credit for doing half a trick or being able, you know, you it's like it doesn't make sense. Right. You either did it or you didn't. And if you did, yeah, let's acknowledge that because it's bringing the future forward. But the more we personalize things, the more we make it about people, about myself, the more the psychology kicks in, it becomes an identity issue. So when something breaks down, then I've got to blame somebody because hell I got credit for it last time.

SPEAKER_03: 12:25

Right. Oh, that's so true. Never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_00: 12:28

It creates a polarization, right?

SPEAKER_03: 12:30

Right. So you're setting precedents for the future of somebody's gonna either get blamed or get credit.

SPEAKER_00: 12:35

Yeah, and instead of that, like what worked, what didn't work, and congratulations to everybody. Now, now what's next?

SPEAKER_03: 12:42

Yeah, let's move on.

SPEAKER_00: 12:43

What's what's next?

SPEAKER_03: 12:44

Yeah, interesting, very interesting. Different way to look at it. And this this was interesting. I you were talking to somebody on a podcast, and I heard you talk about a good argument or a versus a bad argument, which I've never heard anybody say that before. So, can you explain like the difference between a good argument and a bad argument?

SPEAKER_00: 13:05

Yeah, I don't know what I said on that podcast, but I'll tell you what the logic is behind it. There's a logical structure. A good argument follows a valid reasoning, where the conclusion actually follows from the premises that one sets up. For example, in deductive arguments, if the premises are true, then the conclusion has got to be true. A bad argument contains logical fallacies or errors in reasoning. So being able to identify errors in reasoning is a big deal. Or gaps that break the link between the premise and the conclusion. Uh well, you take an extreme situation that's it's at at the uh extremes, and then you you slay it, and then you think you've beat the other guy's argument, or you do ad hominem, which is you attack their character, or you do something dramatic. Uh and and that that's usually what destroys an argument, makes it a bad argument. And then if you have to defend what you're saying without listening, if you can't hear it, and then be able to engage the person in a logic or identify where the logic you know goes in a different direction, then what I like to do is understand them fully. Yeah, but I can't understand what you say, if I can't take your side and see it, I probably don't have a great argument because I I'm not willing to learn from what you see, at least how to frame my argument in your concerns or your interests.

SPEAKER_01: 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:36

So hearing somebody out, being able to hear it without being hooked, you know. You know what I mean by hooked, like reacting and attacking. There's a number of things I can listen for. Uh that okay, if it's let's say a logical error, then I can if if it's a logical error, I should be able to slow the argument down, ask them what the premise it's built on, and then have them notice does what you're saying line up with that premise, or are you using some extreme examples so that you can make a point like a gotcha, right, instead of wing me over to your your logic. And unfortunately, most people you know, just in our culture, it's kind of sad. Most people aren't interested in the truth, or at least you know, the angles, what could possibly be true? They're more interested in either their political or religious or personal view, and they're not really looking to find anything out, they're just looking to prove themselves right. And that's a bad argument, too. So if I get hooked into something where somebody's just proven to be right, I'll just you know, I'll let them be right. What am I gonna do? Uh if they're not willing to listen and they're not willing to consider my perspective, then it's the old saying you'll wipe the dust off your shoes and move on. Yeah, but I I like to do a lot, I'll vet it to understand where they're coming from.

SPEAKER_03: 16:00

Yeah, and I you had Sid mentioned too when it was when you were talking about that, he just said that that the the fact that you're in an argument means that you actually have passion about the subject. So you actually both actually care about something together.

SPEAKER_00: 16:14

Yeah, and you're which I thought was interesting. That can usually level some of the heat, right?

SPEAKER_03: 16:18

Right, right. You because you're if you're in this argument, that means that there's passion about this common subject, and actually that's a good thing. That's a good thing. We just got to be able to figure, figure out the uh, you know, how we can work it out between the two people.

SPEAKER_00: 16:33

I can respect your point of view. Like I just had a good argument with a guy online. Good argument.

SPEAKER_03: 16:39

That sounds funny when somebody's I had a good argument with somebody. Uh that's funny.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

He's a friend of mine, and he was disturbed that oh, I was basically saying since we established the Department of Education, education's gone downhill. And he said correlation is not, you know, proof. I said, of course it's not, but one trillion dollars, we can say that at least they didn't get anything done.

SPEAKER_03: 17:04

They certainly didn't stop the decline. Well, well, we can also say that money was not the solvent.

SPEAKER_00: 17:10

It wasn't the solvent.

SPEAKER_03: 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:11

And my point to him was he he came back and said, Well, you know, what about people? He brought up this professor who uh had a group of students in an engineering class, and without these grants from the government, well, the class would fail. I said, Well, not necessarily. Here's what he means. I said, Well, what if he could identify the value of his class to the different industrial or commercial concerns that are going to benefit from it? Then he could go out and raise money for the class and make work some program where they're gonna be happy to do that. It's a write-off, etc. But but those are things that you know, I'm I'm a big proponent for the individual, and let's turn things back to the private sector and let's get the antitrust laws back in place and let's get the government out of our lives and let's make small government because there's a lot of there's a lot of really bright people who would excel. And uh and it really, you know, it was a good conversation because there was no name calling. Yeah, there was no guy's a great guy, I love him, I understand his point of view. He's a musician uh and an artist, and he has a more liberal, if you will, yeah, view. And I can respect it when some guy makes some smart ass report remark towards him, and I love what this guy's response was. You know, we managed to get through a very complex conversation here without throwing any ad hominem, and you come along out of nowhere and you want to stir it up. I I just I said right on, you know, I was with him on that.

SPEAKER_03: 18:41

Like what is funny that we need we have a lot more in common. We actually, most people, when you look at those things, when you get into those topics, the everybody wants the same result. We want the same result, we just have different ideas on how to get there. I mean, that's really what it's about. You know, it's not about us having a different idea of something. We have the same, we know where we want to get to. We just it's different ways of getting there. That's all.

SPEAKER_00: 19:06

Yeah, and if you want to shut up the opposite side, well then you're the very thing you hate, the thing you're trying to eliminate. Okay. So true. I enjoy it. Every time I get in a good argument, it causes me to think. And if somebody pulls something out I can't handle, that's great. I have to go think about it and research it.

SPEAKER_03: 19:22

Yeah, research it. It actually makes your opinion even more solid then at that point, because then you can actually get something behind it to to prove your point or to you know substantiate your point, not prove it. Yeah, no, that's good. That's that's good. I and I I'm on the same page with you there. Um, let's go into one of the quotes that you you had too that I thought was really cool. You were on a podcast and you mentioned this. It was actually a recent one. Whenever you find yourself defensive, ask yourself what could be true about what they are saying. That was actually really cool because you know we do find ourselves defensive a lot in in in you know, in conversations or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

I can say all I do.

SPEAKER_03: 20:02

Yeah, and so it's just actually so what what could be true about what they're saying? So it's like take a moment and listen, right?

SPEAKER_00: 20:09

Yeah, well, yeah. I just had a good I've been married with my wife, I've been with my wife for 50 years. Oh wow, good for you. I had a pretty good knockdown drag out. I was, you know, we went on for about 10 minutes. That's that's a long one for us. And you know, she got mad at me and said, Take me home. And I I said, Hey, tell me what I did. She goes, You were mean. You were mean to me, and you were defensive, and and you attacked me, and the way you talked to me was demeaning.

SPEAKER_03: 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:38

And I thought about it and I said, Well, you're right. Well, why did you do that? And I said, Well, because I'm insecure and I think. We're touching on something A, I wasn't prepared to talk about because you know I didn't know how what to say, and rather than say I'm not ready to talk about, I'm still thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01: 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:57

You pressed in and I didn't, I I wasn't, I reacted. So I asked her to forgive me. And it was so interesting because I thought, oh God, how many, how long am I gonna pay for this? That was my thought. And then she looked at me and she said, You know, I love it when you do this. You know, it's rare you do this, and when you do, it makes me remember why I love you. And I was like, that's not what's supposed to be coming.

SPEAKER_03: 21:18

Yeah, yeah. That's cool. Hey, all I can tell you, I wouldn't don't eat her dinner then. If she makes you dinner, I would not eat it. Get somebody to taste it first.

SPEAKER_01: 21:32

That's right.

SPEAKER_03: 21:33

Oh, that's funny. That's really funny. Well, that's that's but that's why you're together as long as you are. Because you can't you you can admit you were wrong and that you you screwed up and whatever, and and and that's that's very important, very important. Yeah, so that's that's an interesting. So is that where the self-defense thing came from? Is it from your wife, obviously?

SPEAKER_00: 21:52

Well, my wife, and she would tell me, you know, Dan, with your partners, I see you sometimes do this. You rather than listen, you just want to make them wrong, and you you either talk down at them, talk down to them like you know more. You you get arrogant, you you're insecure, so you make it look like you're really confident instead of just unplugging and let them seeing what you're ready, you know, like what you're not sure about. You don't know if you don't know, you know. It's been very helpful. I have multiple partners in multiple businesses, so and they're all very different. And I love them all, and I we have really good relationships, but I think a lot of it's not just I'm that I'm willing to do that, but so are they. Uh they they're all pretty willing to pull out the stops. But if you know somebody says something, they we listen well together, we don't argue much, but when we do, it's more using logic and and and the vision. Like, you know, there's a we're going after something and we're using that as the plumb line. Works out pretty well. But if it should break out into insecurity, like I can, I can usually catch myself, and that's why, because she's helped me hug the cactus, if you will.

SPEAKER_03: 23:06

Yeah, I've heard I've heard you say that a couple times in your uh in the things I was listening to, the hug the cactus. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Because it's actually an interesting term. Is that your term, or did somebody else come up with that?

SPEAKER_00: 23:18

I I I can't I learned, you know, it's funny. I've been saying it since I was about the third grade. I had a priest, I you know, I went to Catholic school, a Jesuit priest who used to say, you know, your successes and your strengths are for others to talk about, and your failures are for you to talk about. And so it's best if you can hug the cactus long enough to long enough to know what those are, because they'll only strengthen you. And he was a jungian, you know, by the time I was in eighth grade, he was talking to us about young and young and doing shadow work, and I really took to it, it really made a difference for me.

SPEAKER_03: 23:57

Oh wow, interesting. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good, it's I never heard that term before, hug the cactus. It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00: 24:03

But um the desert fathers it came from.

SPEAKER_03: 24:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, we don't have cactus around here, so you know it's just a different term. Um where are you at? We're in we're here in Reading, Pennsylvania. We're out, we're outside of uh Philadelphia. So we're like uh I'd say an hour and 20 minutes northwest of Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_00: 24:22

I gotcha, gotcha. I come out there often.

SPEAKER_03: 24:24

Yeah, we got good cheesesteaks down around this area. We got all kinds of good stuff. Uh yeah, it's a it's good, it's actually a really nice dairy. It really is. And then I like this one too. The honesty paves the way to uncover the truth. My honesty might not always mirror the truth, but it's the first step towards finding it, especially if I'm open to having my views questioned. Embrace honesty as the compass in your quest for truth.

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 24:48

That was something that you said uh that I thought was really interesting. The honesty paves the way to uncover my truth. Uh yeah, uncover the truth. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 24:56

Yeah, honest means in Latin, one with what is for you personally. Oh, okay. So what's true for me may not be what's truly going on, but if I speak to you what's true for me, be honest, honest. It'll probably provoke you to if if you see something different, to say so. It'll surface what needs to be seen. And the idea, most people tend to cover up what's honest because they don't want to be thought poorly of. But you know, that's the risk you take if you want to get something done. And and if you're not willing to do that, then you're gonna slow down the loop that you know the loop that occurs that causes something to happen. I send over a communication, you send something back. And if I send an honest communication over and you respond honestly, then we're gonna the the rate of motion of getting to the truth is is accelerated. But if I pretend and speak around it and try to say things you need to hear, or I think you need to hear to accept me, my aim now isn't the truth, it's you accepting me. I changed my aim. So the hierarchy of concerns that I'm gonna stand in or have dominate my listening, right? Because we are biological, we're listening for certain things. So if I'm aiming at being accepted, I listen for a different set of things of language, different set of things distinctions than if I'm aiming at what's true, what's real here, right?

SPEAKER_03: 26:28

That's really interesting. Yeah, because you're changing, you're changing the end gate, you're changing what we're actually going for, as opposed to, yeah. So if if I send you something and it's an honest comment or honest thing, and then you send back something that's not honest, well, not it's gonna take longer to get to the truth.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

That's right. It's gonna take it takes so long. That's why people say executives will say, Well, I just don't have time for the a conversation with her because it'll take forever. No, it won't. Yeah, it only takes as long as you're willing, you know, if you're not willing to get straight and honest, especially if you're the you're the founder or the executive and you're talking to somebody else in the organization that works with you, if you get honest, they'll tend to get honest right back. And if they don't, you'll sniff it. And you can invite them into it. You can invite them into saying what they're not saying. And we all know when somebody's harboring something, if we stop and listen.

SPEAKER_01: 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:21

Unless, unless all we're concerned with is getting our way, then we won't know. We're gonna be surprised about who's undermining the project. We're not gonna understand why, and we're gonna be surprised who it is because we haven't paid attention up until that point.

SPEAKER_03: 27:37

Right, right. Yeah, that's that's a I like that. That's really good. It's an interesting uh take on that. It really is. And then let's to wrap it up. I want to talk to you. This is something that I think in every business or in anything that people do, whether it's relationships or business or teamwork or anything, the the topic of difficult conversations. Yeah, I think everybody tries to avoid them. We we we uh procrastinate, and then what happens is that difficult conversation probably gets even more difficult because it wasn't it wasn't addressed when it should have been.

SPEAKER_00: 28:12

What do what is penalties and interest?

SPEAKER_03: 28:15

Yeah, yeah. So what's your what's your your take on that? How do you deal with had having difficult conversations? How do you prepare for that?

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

Again, it's a mindset issue, and then there's most people don't want to have them because they don't believe they can get beyond where they're at. And they're they're not confident in their ability to find the find what's wanted and needed, so they try to avoid it. Yeah, and that's where I said, you know, look, what you're not willing to face now will ultimately defeat you. And so that's the idea is first to understand if I don't have this conversation, what future is attached to it? Every conversation has a future attached to it. So if I come and sit down with you and I have an inauthentic discussion about something that's peripheral to what I really want to talk about, there's a future attached to that. You know, sooner or later something's gonna happen. I'll never forget. My wife, many, many years ago, 40 years, 45 years ago, was starting a daycare, and and she had it was called the Happy Landing Daycare. And she would take 12 kids in. I had my two kids and 10 more. I'll never forget, I was getting ready for work and I could hear her talking to a new client, and she was complaining about the daycare she just left to come to ours. And my wife is all excited, and so the lady left, and she comes running in, she says, I got a new client. I said, That is not a good client. She goes, What do you mean? I go, You will soon be a lady down the street if you don't get clear about what was missing for her and what what didn't work for her. And notice if she takes any responsibility for what she contributed to it, because otherwise it the pattern will show up and you will react in a way that makes her right. And no, she got mad at me and went back and took the client on three months later. It came up, and that we talk, we laugh about that a lot. This from that moment on, she's like, Okay, Mr. Wizard, but how did you all know it was gonna happen? I said, Well, I'm just listening. That's that's the way she's relating to you is gonna repeat itself because she's blaming everything, she's putting externalizing everything, so there's no she has no power in the situation, and when the thing comes up here, she's not gonna have any power because she's still got it left over there, so she's gonna do the same thing, she's gonna run, blame you, and be right and move on. And and if you can notice that, then that's a great onboarding tool. Yeah, that's what we were doing. So we started onboarding, she started being very specific about how she onboarded. And it wasn't that people it wasn't that they can because they left somewhere, it's like how much of it did they own? How willing were they to look at this? Wasn't a match, and I didn't care to look at it, and whatever their part was in it, not that they're to blame, but they had something to do with it if it didn't work out. What conversations did they miss? And that works all the way through business.

SPEAKER_03: 31:14

Absolutely. I I I know that to be so true. Uh if somebody tells you a story, it has to do with also with with when you're dating, when before you get married or something like that. When the when the girls telling you all about the husband that he did this, this, and this, or the boyfriend did this, this, and this. I can tell you right now, you're gonna be talked about that way in about three, four months to a year. So if you don't, if you don't address that there, if you don't address what she's what she's having issue with, you're gonna be the person the next time.

SPEAKER_00: 31:46

Yeah. Well, we end up with a lot of clients. Our clients will have us, they like our work so much they want to bring it to their family. Yeah, or they get up against it with their spouse, man or woman, and they'll invite us in to say, look, can you work with us on this? Yeah. And a lot of it has to do with like I'll ask them, when was the last time you believed something was right? You were so true, you were so certain it was right, and you found out it wasn't. And if they can't give me one or two instances, I know we got there's there's some work to do here. Do we want to get in bed with this person?

SPEAKER_03: 32:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds weird when you're talking about working with families.

SPEAKER_00: 32:25

Oh, yeah, there you go.

unknown: 32:27

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

Yeah, we're a little kicky.

SPEAKER_03: 32:29

Probably, probably, probably a word you'd want to change if you're talking about coaching family. Yes, there you go. That's a little better, a little better. Oh my gosh. Well, good conversation. Is there anything else you want to bring up like about your company, what you guys do before we wrap this up? And I also um you have this ebook that that I'm gonna be reading, actually. It's in like um, it's called The Change Imperative. Uh, if you want to tell us a little bit about that, and then also tell us about how we get in touch with you with your company, and and we we'll uh we'll part ways.

SPEAKER_00: 32:59

Yeah, change imperative. I wrote it many, many years ago when I was doing some work with ESPN. They were being bought up by Disney and there was a lot of conflict. Disney was a union house, and uh ESPN was a right right-to-work house, and the MOU had allowed them to stay that way for however long, and uh there were some problems. So I was working with a lot of their executives on how to anticipate, strategize, and anticipate the conflict and be able to deal with it, navigate it in a way that would move people because in a breakdown uh when you have a change, you have about 20-25 percent of the people who are on board let's go. You got another 30% of the people, 40% of the people that are on the fence. You got about 20 or 30 percent that are not going. They don't want to move. And if you've got to be find strategies to move the fence sitters to the to the positive side, to the get on board. And how you deal with the what I call the levelers, the ones who want to level the change and keep things the way they are, yeah, has a lot to do with winning the fence sitters over.

SPEAKER_01: 34:13

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 34:14

So there's a and that that that it's called the change imperative because change is going to happen. It's imperative, it's the constant. Yeah, so best get used to it. And we have a lot of frameworks to help people think through hard, difficult conversations that arise when you produce a change, any change in the organization. And you gotta be prepared. So, one, you want to understand the ground, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. So, when you see it get worse, that's actually not a bad thing, that's a good thing. Now, how are you gonna handle that? And you know, who are the who are the influencers you can persuade that will move multiple people? Whenever you look at a group of people, whenever you walk in front of a group of people, if you're gonna be speaking, people have natural gravitas, people follow them naturally. If you can identify them in the room and you move them, people move with them. And and so you've got to have conversations that'll open up possibility that they will choose in on. And if they don't, well, you're not gonna move the room, you're not gonna move the group. So knowing who that is on your team is important. Who are the levelers, who's on board, who's on the fence, the change imperative will help you think about that.

SPEAKER_03: 35:26

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00: 35:27

And prepare for it.

SPEAKER_03: 35:28

And that's free. Uh you go on to um, I think you could we could go on to uh take newground.com. I think was it on there, or where was that at? I forget. Is that where it was?

SPEAKER_00: 35:37

Scroll down to the, I think close to the bottom of the page and put your email in there and they'll and they'll send you, we'll send you one.

SPEAKER_03: 35:42

Yep, I just downloaded it to today, which is great. So, how do we get a hold of you? Is it through the website takenwround.com? Is that the best way?

SPEAKER_00: 35:49

Yeah, that's a great way, or you can get us uh get me on LinkedIn, take a tocini. I'm on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03: 35:56

You're also on Instagram too. I know I said if they put your name in, you can find them there too. So we're gonna say takenewground.com is the best way to get in touch with you. That's correct. Yes, excellent. And also, you said also there was another place you said that you could find we could find you. It's on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03: 36:10

And just search your name?

SPEAKER_00: 36:11

Search my name, Dan Tokini.

SPEAKER_03: 36:13

Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank you so much, Dan, for being on the show. I really appreciate it. All right, there you have it, Dan Tokini. There you go. Takenewround.com. Unbelievable. He's got a free ebook too to check out. It's called the Change Imperative. Uh, if you like the stuff we talked about, you definitely want to download that ebook because it's really good stuff. That's about it. Thanks for watching us every Thursday at 7 p.m. All right, that's it. See you.